April 16, 2009
Tea Party Anyone?
Someone talk to me, I am obviously (maybe?) the most conservative one that goes on here. And that's not saying too much since I deem myself "Independent." I just think this is something that should be talked about in a constructive way.
First off, the Boston Tea Party was, in short, a protest against the British shipping tea to the American Colonists and taxing it. Then Britain wanted to take it back.
I would like to say that BOTH sides of the media need to be ruled out of the equation, I want to people to say something meaningful to them personally or not anything at all because I see too many people (in the media) siding with party lines just because that's how things work. All FOX can do is try and blame liberals and Obama when its not their fault and all CNN and MSNBC can do is try and nit-pick things like, "OMG this guy on FOX said there was over 9000 people there when there was only 5000!" "He belongs in jail," is what they said I believe.
I believe in Obama, thats why I voted for him. However, you cant just vote for someone then forget about everything, you have to keep tabs on what they are up to, just like all ur hoes! YA KNOW?!?!
First thing I think people are worried about is the stimulus package that passed. The bill was a huge stack of paper filled with pork/earmarks (something obama said he wouldn't let happen) and passed within a few weeks without being read by any congressman or representative. I'm not saying that its going to hurt us but you have to agree that its dangerous or risky no matter how you look at it. The way our country was built was to pass bills into law painfully slow to make sure it was fully represented by the people and that we got it right the first time through. I know we needed something to change fast, and we voted for it, thats why it happened, but you have to realise the risk.
Another thing is the way this is affects us. For instance, Everyone in America gets a EDIT:(Not really a tax refund, its stimulus money from the government in the form of a return, or something like that). If you made $3000 and are independent "taxpayer" then you get at least $300 back, Married couples get $600 each a PLUS $300 for each dependent child under 16. THIS APPLIES TO YOU WEATHER YOU PAID TAXES OR NOT. That means the person that pays NO tax gets a share of the $144 I, CHRIS JACK, paid in taxes. This is something that is George Bush's fault but it is something that Congress is probably not going to fix unless these tea parties get through to them. In all honesty the Governenment cannot take better care of somone or someones company better than that person or company can take care of itself, but it thinks it can. I know, some people really cant take care of themselves. I personally want GMC to succeed but the way American buisness has always succeeded has been without governement interference. If GMC fails, something new and willing to make better products will take its place. Instead, right now its just costing us money. People are mad because they are worried about this some $700 Billion we just spent and some $2 Trillion we are in debt. It WILL NOT be paid off anytime soon unless every American wants to pay the Government $1,000,000 a week per person for the next 10 years.
What do you think?
=)
First off, the Boston Tea Party was, in short, a protest against the British shipping tea to the American Colonists and taxing it. Then Britain wanted to take it back.
I would like to say that BOTH sides of the media need to be ruled out of the equation, I want to people to say something meaningful to them personally or not anything at all because I see too many people (in the media) siding with party lines just because that's how things work. All FOX can do is try and blame liberals and Obama when its not their fault and all CNN and MSNBC can do is try and nit-pick things like, "OMG this guy on FOX said there was over 9000 people there when there was only 5000!" "He belongs in jail," is what they said I believe.
I believe in Obama, thats why I voted for him. However, you cant just vote for someone then forget about everything, you have to keep tabs on what they are up to, just like all ur hoes! YA KNOW?!?!
First thing I think people are worried about is the stimulus package that passed. The bill was a huge stack of paper filled with pork/earmarks (something obama said he wouldn't let happen) and passed within a few weeks without being read by any congressman or representative. I'm not saying that its going to hurt us but you have to agree that its dangerous or risky no matter how you look at it. The way our country was built was to pass bills into law painfully slow to make sure it was fully represented by the people and that we got it right the first time through. I know we needed something to change fast, and we voted for it, thats why it happened, but you have to realise the risk.
Another thing is the way this is affects us. For instance, Everyone in America gets a EDIT:(Not really a tax refund, its stimulus money from the government in the form of a return, or something like that). If you made $3000 and are independent "taxpayer" then you get at least $300 back, Married couples get $600 each a PLUS $300 for each dependent child under 16. THIS APPLIES TO YOU WEATHER YOU PAID TAXES OR NOT. That means the person that pays NO tax gets a share of the $144 I, CHRIS JACK, paid in taxes. This is something that is George Bush's fault but it is something that Congress is probably not going to fix unless these tea parties get through to them. In all honesty the Governenment cannot take better care of somone or someones company better than that person or company can take care of itself, but it thinks it can. I know, some people really cant take care of themselves. I personally want GMC to succeed but the way American buisness has always succeeded has been without governement interference. If GMC fails, something new and willing to make better products will take its place. Instead, right now its just costing us money. People are mad because they are worried about this some $700 Billion we just spent and some $2 Trillion we are in debt. It WILL NOT be paid off anytime soon unless every American wants to pay the Government $1,000,000 a week per person for the next 10 years.
What do you think?
=)
Chris Jack
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Active Discussion
Mark • April 16th 2009 • Reply
First I thought the title of this post was going to be "Tea Party Anyong" because the "e" was cut off on the homepage.
Second you're referring to the IRS stimulus return not a tax refund. Not everyone gets a tax refund, my parent's definitely didnt, and not everyone gets the return either, only people who are not claimed as dependents. Which does suck for people like us whose tax money is then being given out to others, but isn't that what taxes are for. It's like insurance. You pay it each month and most of the time nothing bad happens to you to where you need the help, but if you have a major accident and insurance pays for it, it is paid for with not only your money, but money they received from others. Paying these taxes is insurance that our government will take care of us, which is what the stimulus return is trying to do. We may not need that extra $300 cause we are dependents but your tax money is helping out your parents and others who are having a little bit more trouble in these hard times.
In reference to the stimulus plan as whole.
I believe the government is doing its best to take care of us, it's just that no one really knows what the best plan of action is here. Every plan has it's faults, both sides can point fingers and blame others for the problems that have surfaced and make claims of those to come, but no one really knows what will happen. The best they have is an educated guess. A quick decision had to be made and I personally believe they are doing what they think is right. Since I know basically nothing about economy I am willing to roll with what the government thinks is best. People have every right to complain and go tea bagging and voice their opinions but, I'm assuming most people don't know the complexities behind a national economy, what good is an uneducated opinion or demonstration? I don't think anything will really change the way our government is doing things unless someone comes up with a better plan. Saying we don't like it doesn't matter if they know what's best. Gotta take the nasty medicine to get over your sickness.
Our debt will most likely never be paid off. I don't think companies like GMC should be given money to keep them on their death bed a bit longer. If they are going to fail, let them fail, something will take its place.
Chris Jack • April 16th 2009 • Reply
Mark, I love talking about stuff with you because I always feel accomplished.
I agree with you. I am just saying that we have to make sure this money is going to the right people. People that will put it back into buying a new car or putting their child through college, not going back to Mexico and spending it there. I have no doubt it is a good idea to help the economy, there are just things you have to take into consideration. And yes, I don't think anyone knows enough about the economy to make all the right choices, its hard enough just to understand whats going on, thats why i like discussion.
Also, your parents SHOULD be getting that return, and I edited to correct bad wording.
From the IRS:
You are eligible if:
*
You or your family has at least $3,000 in qualifying income from, or in combination with, Social Security benefits, Veterans Affairs benefits, Railroad Retirement benefits and earned income. Supplemental Security Income (SSI) does not count as qualifying income for the stimulus payment.
*
You and any family members listed on your tax return have valid Social Security numbers.
*
You are not a dependent or eligible to be a dependent on someone else’s federal tax return. (The same must be true of any family members claimed on your return.)
Mark • April 16th 2009 • Reply
Agreed. Like giving money to dieing companies, there's no point in wasting money in something that will fail.
And yes they got a return, but they didn't get a tax refund. The $1800 they got from that wasn't enough to cover their tax debt.
peter • April 16th 2009 • Reply
La la la, where to begin...
The OG tea party (the OGs being Sam Adams and a gaggle of colonists dressed as Native Americans) was a reaction to an act (the tea act), which these colonists believed infringed on their constitutional rights by giving the East India Company (a bunch of wack motherfuckers) an unfair advantage. This of course eventually led to the American Revolution. Totally revolutionary, and totally awesome. (The costumes were a bit rude, to the native americans, but we'll let it slide.)
The tea party of present day times, what I would like to refer to as the "lame ass convoluted attempt at being revolutionary but completely falling flat on your face suckness," is just an attempt to use a historic and revolutionary moment and attempt to mirror it. It's Hannity, O'Reilly, and all those media pundits dicking around because they like feeling important. Especially O'Reilly. That dude is so hateful and angry all the time. What a dick.
Anyways, what it comes down to is Fox drawing attention to themselves (Which they did SPECTACULARLY. I can't imagine what ratings are like, bravo to them. Trolling works?), the left getting really pussyhurt (see the CNN woman? She was pissed), and no one really fucking accomplishing ANYTHING. All most people know is that it has something to do with taxes, and God knows EVERYONE hates taxes. It's just a fundamental hatred we're all born with. Hatred of taxes. I hate taxes.
I read the stimulus package breakdown. I read up on the reasoning, the logic. I don't fucking know if it'll work. No one knows if it'll work. The problem with the current situation is that it has never happened before. Derivatives of derivatives of derivate securities? Based on faulty formulas and fueled by greed in an investment system that was flawed to being with? (If you're interested in the actual formulas behind the mortgage backed securities, IM me and I'll send you an article from WIRED) How do you fix the damage of a monster that has never been seen before? Like Mark said, it's an educated guess. The pundits don't know what will work. The Harvard-educated economists can only guess.
But I like the money set aside from public transportation, I like the money set aside for alternative energy sources. It's times like these that innovation comes out of the deep corners created by desperation, and we move forward. The whole whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger bullshit. Unless America falls. Which is total bullshit again, because a modern economy is nearly incapable of collapsing. For the conspiracy theorists banking on a new world order, and if you're on Digg reading about how there's a conspiracy to destroy America, I don't ever want to meet or talk to you. Go away.
Bottom line: history repeats itself, but not exactly. Shit happens, shit gets fixed. People get angry, people get pussyhurt, usually over things they don't understand. Luckily, we have the right to do so because we live in an awesome, but flawed country. This entire rant has no substance, but it's okay.
Chris Jack • April 16th 2009 • Reply
Peter, like I said, your banter reminds me of Colbert. An educated comic relief, I love it.
I hope people don't think I'm saying we need to have tea parties and STOP THE EVIL STIMULUS. No one wants to pay taxes but its a duty that we can be proud of. Its just we have to be careful of how we are spending and making sure we are represented, RITE?!?!
Katy • April 16th 2009 • Reply
Great commentary so far. Peter and Mark covered a bit of what I was already planning on saying, so I'll go on a bit of a tangent, but it will all tie in, I promise.
A lot of conservative criticism that has been floating around as of late has to do with this elevated status that the American people have brought Obama to. Yes, he's different from a lot of other executives we've elected, but he's not God. The truth is, he'll probably do marginally better or marginally worse than the majority of presidents we've had. He's been in office less than 100 days, and people are already casting stones and delivering criticism for his response to a problem that no other generation has seen before. We don't know if the stimulus will work, but in order to attack the problem, it does require swift action. If you break it down in it's most simplistic form, it actually makes a lot of sense. We'll probably need to give out more money and it will probably make Obama more unpopular with a lot of people. He's trying to do his job, wait a couple months before you throw insults. The greatest executives of our nation's history (Franklin Roosevelt, Lincoln, Kennedy, to an extent) actually overstepped the boundaries on executive power laid out in the Constitution in order to do something about the nation's problem. The New Deal didn't totally work the first time around; the Second New Deal is actually the one full of successful programs and provided the nation with much of the necessary reform. Lincoln was a marked man for the majority of his presidency because of his implementation of martial law, sweeping changes to property rights and protection (wiping out slavery -- hate to talk about it in such dehumanized terms, but essentially, that's why people were angry. The government can't just take away your property. My point: save judgment for later, regardless of what side of the aisle you're on.
As far as the stimulus package full of pork . . . there's honestly no way around that. Senators and representatives are elected to their respectful positions in order to look out of their constituents. Plenty of states are facing economic problems (California, for instance) and get the money to help their people out from the only person giving it. If you want a government working to aid their citizens, I wouldn't start attacking pork.
We are a democratic republic, meaning we elect individuals to represent us, vote on issues, yet we have laws to keep us in check, because there is no way that a democracy in a country this large could not run without absolute chaos. We're being represented in the best way the system can allow. Even Jefferson, the most Democratic presidents of presidents, was afraid of true democracy because most citizens don't really understand what's going on. People get pissed because they have to pay taxes. If you don't want the government to work for you (i.e. provide police, roads etc etc etc), then leave. It sounds really simplistic, but that's what it comes down to. People enter into society in order to cede some of their natural rights in order to gain protection for their most basic needs. When the government does provide for its people (that includes ALL people -- not everyone in society has equal means, but they still participate in the system to the best of their abilities) then you can overthrow it and implement something else you think will work better as a whole. The government goes in cycles. We recognize that their are times of prosperity and times of strain. We are represented, even when GM and Ford gets tons of money or when banks are saved. We all have a share in each others well being - it's not truly representative of the will of the people as individuals or citizens of a state, but it is implemented to reflect the needs of the citizen on a national level. The money may not be going straight into your pocket, but it will get there.
Chris Jack • April 16th 2009 • Reply
The history major is showing off...
Haha, Thanks Katy, I really like what you had to say as well.
Its really nice to put all this into perspective so thanks to everyone for that. I agree that Obama is getting some undeserving criticism when nothing has even happened yet. Hes spent a lot of money but nobody can say if that\'s good or bad, its just we have to keep a cautious eye on whats really happening. I know pork is impossible to get by, that wasn\'t really the problem. It\'s that no one even read the bill, God only knows what all those greedy representatives put in there. I know lots of it was probably necessary but a lot of that money will go straight to somethings we don\'t need and right into someone of power\'s pocket.
A lot of Americans just don\'t want to head in a socialist direction yet. Some people dont want to be Europe, they want to be different. But here we are falling way behind in education and our economy is not well. I agree that that\'s why we elected (or I did anyway) Obama, to clean up a bit and make the USA stand out again. I am all for small government, have you ever tried getting anything done at the DMV or post office? It\'s just that now is the time for these big changes to change the way we work and when people can finally learn to work together and not be so petty with all this bullcrap is when we can finally pull out of this slump.
When I think about history I think about WWII and how families grew victory gardens to save food for the soldiers and how our war plan seemed so determined and straight forward. I\'m sure it got a fair share of criticism but it seemed like it made us share a common goal and believe in something.
Same with all the NASA missions that lead up to landing on the moon. America was challenging itself, everyone wanted to see us go to the moon, it must have been to incredible to be a part of that.
I want to be apart of something, and I think that\'s what we need. Tea Parties don\'t count, that was already done
Jeff Micklos • April 16th 2009 • Reply
Dang it, I think I am late to the party...
I guess that is okay because I wouldn't have said anything different from everyone else; I think we are all in agreement. I will just send out some shout outs, TRL style...
@mark, you completely nailed it with your comparison between taxes and insurance; I look at it the exact same way. It is hard for me to agree with it while I am in a privileged place but deep down I know that the system is built properly. If I were ever in dire need of help, I would be extremely thankful for the way it is built...
WOOOOOOOOOOOOHH!!!
@mark and peter (maybe, I forgot), the main point I was going to make re: the stimulus is... how the hell are we (I) supposed to know if the plan is going to work. We have some incredibly knowledgeable people working for us and I am certain that they know what they are doing (at least much more than I do). OMGOMGOMGWOOOOOO!O!O!!O!!!!!
@katy, thank you for bringing history into the conversation. Regarding people's criticisms of President Obama, people always want something to disagree with, especially those who voted against him. Anything to justify that they made the "right" choice.
Don't get me wrong, I am a strong supporter of holding the president accountable but I think this "First 100 Days" talk is just bogus. Yeah, it worked (magnificently) for FDR but we now have a completely different political climate and holding President Obama to that standard is just not fair. Give it time to pan out...
Plus, I think he has made a stunning amount of progress thus far...
WOOOOOOOO!!!OMGOMGOMGWOOOOOOOOOOO!
@chris, the thing might be that you are in the middle of something big, you just can't see it yet. There are all kinds of crazy innovations happening all around that are just waiting for more people to hop on to make them real. Cleaner Energy, Human Genomes, iPhones, Fuel Efficient Cars and Future Technologies. Those are all so big and important that I put them in capitals! If you look deep into the things that are happening around you, you might see that they are future changing innovations...
WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOAHGASJDHGAJHGAAHHHHHHHHHHHAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!
Jeff Micklos • April 16th 2009 • Reply
that last shout out was so loud that it broke the box...
Chris Jack • April 16th 2009 • Reply
Jeff, that's exactly what I'm hoping for!
I definitely believe that stimulus money helps but ultimately the government is not going to create all these innovations, its the individuals and business. Like on stem cell research, the government can open the doors for all these wonderful things to happen. Same with health care. You guys compare it to having insurance, which is better than a comparison than I can come up with, but that means you have companies competing. Government insurance is necessary but if health care is completely reliant on government with no competition then that's when you get the worst doctors and weakest care.
I wanna break a box too
DEEEEEDEEEEEYEAHHHHHHHHHHHYEAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!
Mark • April 16th 2009 • Reply
lol at box breaking shout outs.
Katy • April 16th 2009 • Reply
Sorry guys, sometimes I can't help myself. This kind of conversation just gets me giddy :)
Great debate, great exposure to ideas . . . really most of this just depends on how you look at it. Good or bad, we're in the middle of something exciting and new and we'll just have to wait and see what happens :)
Chris Jack • April 16th 2009 • Reply
Kinda like San Diego fires
Good? Bad? Always exciting, Mark will agree with me.
But yes, thanks everyone for taking time to post and talk about this. It has been fun. And I look forward to our future.
Jeff Micklos • April 16th 2009 • Reply
hell no to nationalized health care. But oh god is that a moral dilemma I fight with so often...
Sorry to derail you but SD Fires are always so fun and entertaining. I kind of feel the same way about pirates. Every time I see a new pirate attack on the news, I smile on the inside. I know that it is terrible of me but I can't help it...
Chris Jack • April 17th 2009 • Reply
Lololol! at pirates. Do you just smile because the fact the pirates are real and doing pirate things, because thats why I do. But it also makes me happy that the French got a "monther" ship, now a ton of pirates are going to be stuck at sea. Also I still want to be a sniper to I can kill pirates.